Q. Are there any cardinals in the Church at
all who are with you?
A. There are some cardinals who, in their
hearts are with us: The Cardinal of Toledo in Spain; Cardinal Siri
of Genoa in Italy; Cardinal Thiandoum in Dakar, Senegal, Africa;
Cardinals Oddi and Palazzini in Rome; and, Gagnon, a Canadian
Cardinal. They are with us in their hearts, and when I speak with
them they say, "Oh, you do good work. It is sure you work for
the Church," but publicly, nothing.
Q. I have read that many of the high-ranking
members of the Roman hierarchy are secret Masons. Is that true? If
so, how deeply have they penetrated the Church?
A. It's very difficult to say, "This man is
a Freemason," "This man is a Freemason," or "This man is a
Freemason." We don't know. It's very difficult. It is certain
that there are some cardinals, some bishops, cardinals in the
Curia, or monsignors or secretaries of congregations in Rome that
are Freemasons. That is certain because the Freemasons themselves
have said that. They have said that they have in their lodge some
priests and bishops. It is certain that there are some cardinals
and many monsignors in Rome who do the same work as the
Freemasons; they have the same thinking, the same mind.
Willebrandt is Prefect of the Secretariat for the Unity of
Christians, and Archbishop Silvestrini is the first secretary of
Cardinal Casaroli who is Secretary of State - and his right hand is Silvestrini. He is a great power in the Curia. He nominates all
the nuncios in the world. He has a very great influence and he is
probably a Freemason.
Q. Some people feel that if you keep going
to the New Mass and stay in your own parishes you can fight from
within. What do you think of this approach?
A. No, I think that is not good, because if
they are going to the New Mass - slowly, slowly they change their
mind and become, slowly, slowly Protestant. It is very dangerous
to go to the New Mass regularly, each week, because the New Mass
is not some accidental change, but it is a whole orientation, a
new definition of the Mass. It has not the same definition as the
true Mass. You can see that, in the New Mass, the "assembly" is
the focal point. It is no longer Jesus Christ Crucified, the
Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. No. That is why, in the Tridentine
Mass, the priest faces toward the crucifix, because Jesus Christ
Crucified is central in the true Mass. But, in the New Mass, the
priest is facing the "assembly," and he is president of a
"meeting." It is no longer the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, our
King, our Savior. That is a very great change in the New Mass and
it is very dangerous. It is a Protestant orientation. And so - slowly, slowly
- people going to this Mass change and for them,
gradually, all religions are good; all are brothers - even if they
are not the same religion and have not the same mind in religion.
That is very dangerous. We cannot say that all religions are the
same thing - that they are all good religions. That is very
Q. Are these people then no longer Catholic?
A. I think that - slowly, slowly - they abandon
the Catholic Faith. They are no longer Catholic. I think that very
slowly they have abandoned the Catholic Faith.
Q. What is your feeling about the future of
the Catholic Church? Do you think there will be an open schism?
A. We can say that right now there is perhaps
no real schism, but we are very near it, because, when they say
that all religions are on the same level, hold the same place and
receive the same consideration, the same respect, that is against
the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church cannot
accept that all religions are considered on the same level as
herself. That is impossible because the Catholic Church is
convinced and teaches that the Catholic Church is the only true
religion, founded by Jesus Christ, by God. We cannot say that God
established three or four religions. That is not true. Jesus
Christ is God; and, if Jesus Christ is God, He founded the
Catholic Church, then we cannot say that other religions are the
same as the Catholic Church. That is impossible. It's against God;
it's against the decision of God and does not depend on us.
Now we see in the newspaper that the pope has
gone to India where he received the sign of the pagan sect on his
forehead. I don't understand! And when he went to the synagogue,
he didn't say, "You Jews must convert to the Catholic Church,"
as did St. Paul and St. Peter and all the Apostles when they were
in the synagogue. When they went to the synagogue, they said to
the Jews - to their brother Jews - they said: "You must become
Christian now. The Old Testament is the preparation for the New,
the preparation for Christ's Kingdom. You must now become
Christians." But they were put out of the synagogue and they
were killed. Some Apostles were killed by the Jews because they
spoke the truth. But now the pope says, "Oh, your religion is
very good, you are our older brothers." Incredible!
Incredible! The pope is not a missionary when he says that. He is
not a missionary, no longer a true Apostle. That is very, very
sad, very sad, for the Catholic Church.
Q. Is it possible that Traditionalists, at
the death of this pope, could elect the next one?
A. The pope is the Bishop of Rome, and who has
the power to choose the Bishop of Rome? In the beginning it was
the priests - the parish priests of Rome - who elected a bishop and
the bishop became the Bishop of Rome, and when he became Bishop of
Rome he became bishop of the whole world. He was the successor of
St. Peter, because St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. And so
they elected the successor of St. Peter - and when the successor of
St. Peter takes his place in the chair of St. Peter - he is pope.
He is pope because he is the Bishop of Rome, because he sits in
the seat of St. Peter. That is a duty of the clergy in Rome, to
elect a new pope, and all cardinals are parish priests in Rome.
They can elect the pope because they are parish priests in Rome.
We don't know what is to happen. We don't know.
Q. Why has Our Lady's request at Fatima not
A. I think because now the pope and the bishops
are afraid of the Communists. If the bishops with the pope
consecrate Russia to the Blessed Virgin of Fatima - to the
Immaculate Heart of Mary - they are afraid that the Communists will
be furious. And now, with ecumenism, they want to be friends with
the Communists, and it's very difficult to be friends with the
Communists and make this consecration. The pope is afraid. He's
afraid. He wants to be very good friends with the Communists and
he hopes that perhaps one day the Communists will give freedom to
the Catholic Faith in all Communist countries, but that is
impossible. Then they would no longer be Communists.
Q. You have met Fr. Nelson at Powers
Lake, North Dakota. In the last issue of the Maryfaithful
we learn that the Bishop of Billings has said that r. Nelson
is not in communion with Rome - he did not ask the bishop's
permission to put on the Marian Hour.
A. I know. I met Fr. Nelson in Rapid City
four or five days ago. He is now persecuted by his bishop, but he
is not the first; we are all persecuted by the bishops. But we
must not be troubled and I encourage Fr. Nelson and his sisters - he has good sisters there
- and he is doing good work. So I
encourage him to remain and to continue even if the bishop does
not treat him kindly.
Q. We hear a lot about the "spirit of
Vatican II." Since you were there, could you perhaps give us your
impression of the "spirit of Vatican II"?
A. Somebody asked me: "Monseigneur, do you
think that the Holy Ghost was in the Council of Vatican II?" I
do not know! The Holy Ghost could have been there. I think that if
the pope had been very strong, very much opposed to
error-Modernist error - it would have been possible to have a good
Council. But already, before the Council, in the Central
Commission - I was in the Central Commission to prepare for the
Council - and already, in this Commission, there were two factions
in the cardinals and bishops - two groups - who fought against each
other - the Liberals against the Conservatives. I must say that the
pope took the side of the Liberals. And so, once things got
underway, the Council became liberal. It is impossible that this
comes from the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is not Liberal.
Q. Is it possible that Rome will give you
permission to consecrate a bishop for the Tridentine Mass to
A. It would be possible, but I don't think it's
possible now. It is not possible now. They are too against
Tradition, too against us because we uphold Tradition. So it is
impossible to think that they will, themselves, consecrate or give
us permission to consecrate a bishop for the Traditionalists. Not
now. I don't know when, but not now.
Q. Our Lord promised that the Church would
never err. As Rome errs, it becomes obvious to me that the true
Church must no longer be with the men in Rome who are in error.
Then where does the flock look for the infallibility which we must
have in order to remain faithful?
A. It is a real problem now, that is true, but
I cannot give the solution to this problem. The men in Rome - are
they still Catholic or no longer Catholic? - that is the question.
I think that - slowly, slowly - we see the unfolding events as a
movie. Today, the pope is in Africa, in Togo, where he went to the
pagan forest and where he did something incredible. After that he
went to India where he received the pagan sign. After that, he
went to the synagogue. It is like a movie. Tomorrow, what will he
be doing? I don't know. And so, you ask yourself: "This man, is
he still Catholic or is he no longer a Catholic?" I don't
know. I think we may ask the question, but I have no answer now.
It is impossible. If one of the faithful had done these things, we
would have said: "Oh, but you are no longer Catholic!" And if Rome
were the Rome of the past - as she had always been before the
Second Vatican Council - if a bishop had done these things he would
have been excommunicated by Rome. They don't do that now. This man
is the successor of St. Peter. It is a very grave question; it is
very sad for all Catholics - for me, and for priests. And so, we
must pray to know and, perhaps one day, we must say that this man
is not Catholic. It's very, very sad; it's very extraordinary;
it's a great mystery of the Church. We cannot follow a man who no
longer teaches Catholic truth. It's very, very tragic.
Q. But the question remains: where to look?
A. For us, it's not a problem to know what is
the source of our faith: our Catholic Faith. We must look at what
was before us. Tradition is the Faith. St. Pius X said: "The
Catholic is traditionalist." Se we must look at Tradition and
know that all teaching of Tradition is Catholic. We follow
Q. About the sacraments, when do we know if
they are invalid or valid in the New Mass? It is very confusing.
Will there be a point when they are not valid any more? What about
A. The answer to that is found in the
principles of theology. For the validity of a sacrament you must
have three things: proper matter, proper form and proper
intention, the intention of the priest. Those are the three
conditions which determine the validity of the sacrament. I cannot
say, myself, that for all sacraments in the Conciliar Church,
these three conditions are never met. I don't think we can say
that. But I think with new priests, with priests who no longer
have Catholic intentions, they don't know what the proper
intention is, the intention of the Church, so that perhaps the
validity of their sacraments is at least doubtful.
Interpolation by Fr. Laisney: There are
three things required for a valid sacrament: valid matter, proper
form and the proper intention in the minister and it is not true
to say that it never happens that the sacraments are invalid in
the Novus Ordo. There are some valid baptisms, some valid
Masses, but, especially with new priests who are not trained
properly, who do not know what should be the intention of the
Church - for instance with the Mass, they think the Mass is just a
meal - then the intention becomes doubtful, and there is at least a
doubt in many modern Masses. At least a doubt. Moreover, you must
add the bad translation. For instance, with "for many"
replaced by "for all men," which is a change in the very
words of consecration. This raises another doubt on the validity
of the consecration. And so you have the intention of the minister
that becomes doubtful. If the minister in baptism, for instance,
says: "Oh, it's just a rite of initiation" - if they reject
the intention to remove Original Sin, then the intention is not
proper. Because they are trained in the new way, then the
intention is sometimes doubtful. Sometimes, but not always - if you
have an old priest. You know they are good Catholics and this old
priest would have a good intention.
Q. Could you tell me how many priests are
now in the Society of St. Pius X, and how many priests who are not
members of the Society have joined in your work?
A. Since the foundation of the Society I have
ordained 250 priests. In the Society there are 152, and 100 more
or less who are Benedictine monks or Dominicans or Franciscans.
Some have abandoned the Society - they were members - but they
continue more or less the same way. We have also many priests who
resist Modernism, who resist the demolition of the Church - they
are very numerous. They are more numerous than priests of the
Society. I think I can say that here in the States there are
perhaps 100 priests who say the Mass privately; they are afraid of
their bishop and they say the old Mass privately. In France there
are about 250 priests who say the Old Mass but who are not members
of the Society, with a similar situation in Switzerland. It is the
same in Germany. There are far fewer in Italy and in Spain - very
few, very, very few. They all follow the bishop. In Portugal, in
Spain, in Italy, in South America, very, very few priests resist
Q. I correspond with a lot of people behind
the Iron Curtain, mainly in Lithuania. There, at the local level,
in parishes and small villages, only the Tridentine Mass is said.
No other Mass is said.
A. This is true, especially in Lithuania - but
there are so many Lithuanian priests in jail, in prison. The
persecution is worse than in other countries. It is very, very
Q. The faithful in Lithuania, and the
priests themselves, have asked the Vatican to allow the Church to
go underground so that they would not have to ask for permission
from the Communist government to be a priest or to be a bishop,
but the Vatican will not allow this, but we have some young
seminarians and priests secretly.
A. Yes, it is possible. In Rome now, the
Vatican wants to be friends with the Communist governments. So
they don't want the priests and bishops to do things opposed by
the Communist government in Lithuania, or in Poland, or any
country under the influence of Communism. It is the same
everywhere. We never hear now of Rome condemning the Communists.
No condemnation of the Communists in the Council either! I gave to
the secretary of the Council, four hundred and fifty signatures of
bishops - I myself gave these signatures to the secretary - the
request by the bishops to condemn the Communists. And they didn't
condemn the Communists; they refused. Four hundred and fifty
signatures and no condemnation of the Communists! It's incredible!
Q. If there was a war in, say, Italy, and
something happened to the pope and cardinals there, who would then
elect a new pope?
A. That belongs to the parish priests of Rome.
Or if there were no more parish priests in Rome - if Rome should
just disappear - then there is a problem. God provides. It is in
the hands of God.
Q. In the case when the papacy was in
France, when the pope did not reside in Rome, is it possible that
that could happen again?
A. He was still elected as Bishop of Rome by
the clergy of Rome.
Q. Fr. Laisney: May I ask a question?
Your Grace, what is your practical advice to the faithful?
A. I think we must keep studying the history of
the Church. It is very important to see the development of the bad
errors in the Church. From the Protestant error, until the Second
Vatican Council, until now, it is very important to see that it is
a work of evil, it is a work of Satan. Change has brought about
revolution. There has absolutely been a revolution in the attitude
of the Catholic mind. The Catholic attitude is one of dependence,
a disposition to obey. In his heart the Catholic has obedience to
God, obedience to the commandments of God. He has in his heart
devotion to and adoration of God. But since the Protestant revolt,
there ensues a revolt of man against God. Man is free - free to
interpret himself all things that come from God. God is now at the
service of man, man is no longer at the service of God. There is
absolute change. And this change goes on and on and on in the
whole world. All states align themselves against God; they become
independent of God, become free of the commandments of God. And
now, in the Church, it is the same. They don't follow Jesus Christ
Himself, and they don't follow the commandments of God; they
follow this revolution. It is a true revolution. The theology of
liberation - it is nothing but the revolt of man against society,
the society founded by God. It's the same in the family; they
destroy families. The father is no longer the head of the family.
That is against the will of God. God created the family with a
head, of his wife and their children - that is very well organized
by God. But now, no, no, no. In Switzerland, for example, they
have announced that the wife can ask from her husband a salary for
the hours she works in the home. That is the law of Switzerland
right now. It is incredible! That is the law since last September
22nd. And the bishops said it is a good thing! Yes! And the law
passed because the bishops sent a letter to all the faithful
saying: "You must support this new law." Incredible! I
preached in Switzerland against the bishops, you know. They are no
longer true bishops, Catholic bishops. They destroy the family.
The wife now has the liberty to have another house in which to
live apart from her husband. Incredible! It is the destruction of
the family. And the same for society. In society, now, each man
does as he likes, and he is encouraged by law, the laws of the
state. Now, the laws of the state are opposed to the laws of God.
That is the revolution and the revolution comes from
Protestantism. And - slowly, slowly - we have all the consequences.
And now, we Catholics, I think we must return
to the good revolution - the revolution we received in baptism. The
grace of baptism is a revolution. We were under the influence of
Satan, we were under the influence of the devil, but by the grace
of baptism we are under the influence of God, we are sons of God
and we are sons of Jesus Christ. We receive this life of God in
our souls and so all virtues come from this life of God. And by
the sacraments, by prayer and by the practice of the commandments
of God, we make a revolution - to refer our lives, our bodies, our
souls to God. So it is a revolution, a good revolution, that Jesus
Christ has done by His Resurrection, by His Incarnation, by our
redemption -that is, the sanctification of our souls. If we are
true Catholics we must have this conviction that we must renew our
souls by this dependence on God.
It is the same in our families, dependence on
God in our families. Keep the commandments of God in your
families; keep the commandments of God in society. That is the
will of God. I think that is a special invitation for us now in
this sad situation in the Church. Why Jesus Christ chose you and
me to continue this work, the work of the redemption of Jesus
Christ, the work of the Catholic Church, to return to true
Catholicism and not be under the influence of this evil revolution
- why He chose you and me? - we don't know. I give you this advice
and encouragement: that is, the source of peace, the source of
satisfaction, the source of joy, is in your families when they are
under the influence of God, the influence of Jesus Christ, the
influence of the Blessed Virgin Mary. When they pray together,
when each member of the family works in its proper place, the
husband head of the family, the wife the heart of the family under
the authority of her husband, and the children under the authority
of their parents, that is a good Christian family.
But everywhere this revolution is a rebellion
against all authority. This equality is against the will of God,
against the creation of God. That is very important.
I think that God asks us now to return to the
true Tradition of the Church, and to continue this Tradition of
the Church, to renew families, to renew society and the Church
also - a true renovation. I think that this is a great grace for us
to remain in this spirit - this Catholic spirit.
It is not my orientation, my attitude - I say
many times to the seminarians in Econe, and in Ridgefield, and
everywhere in our seminaries:
Don't say, 'We follow Mgr. Lefebvre,' no! Why Mgr. Lefebvre? He's
no saint! But you follow Jesus Christ and the Tradition of the
Church. You remain Catholic! What more do you want? No other
I refuse to say, "I
am the chief of the people who follow tradition." No, no, no,
no! I am a Catholic bishop, no more, and I continue my work to
preach Catholic doctrine. I do my work to prepare Catholic
priests, and through them, the Catholic faithful, and no other
thing. No! Don't say "the doctrine of Mgr. Lefebvre." I
have no doctrine. I have no new teaching. My teaching is that of
the Church, the teaching of the Catholic Church and the catechism
of the Council of Trent. That is very important - to remain in the
true way - and not to give the impression that you have founded a
new Church. That is what the Modernists are doing - they build a
new church. We don't build a new church; we follow the Catholic
Church of always.
Thank you very much.